I'd like to see "The Trojan Horse", as I'm curious about how it handles the constitutional constructs it revolves around.That said, you appear to again be arguing by assertion. At the very least, you're assuming some rather dubious premises of your argument, rather than providing any kind of compelling case for them."...the fact that Canadian federalism is a product of the provinces themselves. Even if Canadian confederation were dissolved -- which would only result in the establishment of fifteen new independent states in North America. The decision about whether to amalgamate with other provinces could only take place on a province-by-province basis."You premise your argument on the assertion of the above, but provide no support whatsoever of it. Canada is not a Confederacy but rather a decentralized Federal Monarchy, in which the one Canadian Crown is represented at both the federal and provincial levels, the provinces being co-sovereign with the federal government. You're right that such a referendum as the film proposes would likely be met with more than one provincial body attempting to fill the sovereignty void that would be created by the federal government ceding it, but that's not the same thing as "dissolution of confederation would render these provinces into states independent of one another".You're engaging in amphiboly with respect to the term "confederation" and its meaning to Canadian governance. "Canada is a federal state and not a confederate association of sovereign states, the usual meaning of Confederation. Canada is often considered to be among the world's most decentralized federations.[1] In a Canadian context Confederation generally describes the political process that united the colonies in the 1860s and related events, and the subsequent incorporation of other colonies and territories. The term Confederation is now often used to describe Canada in an abstract way, "the Fathers of Confederation" itself being one such usage. Provinces and territories that became part of Canada after 1867 are also said to have joined, or entered into, Confederation (but not the Confederation). Confederation is, loosely translated, a confederation of colonies.Do you have any support for your claims regarding Canadian Confederacy and the implications it has for enumerated and delegated powers, or is this going to again be another "endless, largely meaningless rant" that presents argument by assertion after argument by assertion?
Audrey, you're the one who likes to lecture on Canadian political theory.Have you ever actually read any? Seriously?I only ask this because you have a remarkable tendency to try to comment on things you know nothing about.For example, Audrey, you have just revealed the extent of your ingorance vis a vis Canadian political science. When you failed to understand how the votes of individual Canadians influence the process of selecting a Prime Minister and government, I knew you were a fool.I had no idea how bad it is -- but I do now.For one thing, for someone who whines so much about "strawman arguments" (also known as your arguments), you sure do like to indulge yourself in them.Nobody here suggested that Canada is a confederacy -- rather that Canada is a federal state.Allow me to explain to you what happened in 1867:The governments of the Province of Canada, Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick came together and negotiated a little thing that Canadian history refers to "Confederation".Under the agreement, the Province of Canada (previously Upper and Lower Canada, unified by 1840 Act of Union) was dissolved into Canada East and Canada West, and established a federal union along with New Brunswick and PEI.(Canada East would come to be known as "Quebec" and Canada West would come to be known as "Ontario".)You would be right to argue that in order to be considered formally a Confederacy that the country would have to be a federation of sovereign states.The missing link in your argument, Audrey -- and we all know you'll never admit this -- is that when Canada Confederated, none of the Provinces were sovereign. Canada was not a sovereign state after Confederation.They were colonies, you moron. Canada's sovereignty would be attained over a period of 115 years, culminating with the patriation of the BNA Act in 1982.Moreover, they were colonies within an entity -- the British Empire -- that no longer formally exists. When Britain dismantled its Empire, it ceded sovereignty to its colonies (with the exception of Hong Kong, which was eventually turned over to China).If the agreement that is Canadian Confederation were dissolved today, each of these states would immediately become sovereign.Where else, Audrey, would sovereignty rest following the dissolution of federal union?I'll forgive you for feeling really, really stupid right now, Audrey, because it's about to get much worse for you.In order for an arrangement like the one depicted in the Trojan Horse to actually function, a number of conditions would be necessary.Most important, the federal government would require the power to enact legislation that would unilaterally re-draw the boundaries between provinces.I invite you to attempt to locate that power in the Constitution.(You won't, because the Constitution does not give it.)But, by all means, I invite you to try.
Since you've decided to take this to another thread, I've posted my response there.
Sounds good, Audrey. Seeing as how you've decided to lose there instead of here, I've indulged you.
Post your comments, and join the discussion!Be aware that spam posts and purile nonsense will not be tolerated, although purility within constructive commentary is encouraged.All comments made by Kevron are deleted without being read. Also, if you begin your comment by saying "I know you'll just delete this", it will be deleted. Guaranteed. So don't be a dumbass.
I'd like to see "The Trojan Horse", as I'm curious about how it handles the constitutional constructs it revolves around.
ReplyDeleteThat said, you appear to again be arguing by assertion. At the very least, you're assuming some rather dubious premises of your argument, rather than providing any kind of compelling case for them.
"...the fact that Canadian federalism is a product of the provinces themselves. Even if Canadian confederation were dissolved -- which would only result in the establishment of fifteen new independent states in North America. The decision about whether to amalgamate with other provinces could only take place on a province-by-province basis."
You premise your argument on the assertion of the above, but provide no support whatsoever of it. Canada is not a Confederacy but rather a decentralized Federal Monarchy, in which the one Canadian Crown is represented at both the federal and provincial levels, the provinces being co-sovereign with the federal government. You're right that such a referendum as the film proposes would likely be met with more than one provincial body attempting to fill the sovereignty void that would be created by the federal government ceding it, but that's not the same thing as "dissolution of confederation would render these provinces into states independent of one another".
You're engaging in amphiboly with respect to the term "confederation" and its meaning to Canadian governance. "Canada is a federal state and not a confederate association of sovereign states, the usual meaning of Confederation. Canada is often considered to be among the world's most decentralized federations.[1] In a Canadian context Confederation generally describes the political process that united the colonies in the 1860s and related events, and the subsequent incorporation of other colonies and territories. The term Confederation is now often used to describe Canada in an abstract way, "the Fathers of Confederation" itself being one such usage. Provinces and territories that became part of Canada after 1867 are also said to have joined, or entered into, Confederation (but not the Confederation). Confederation is, loosely translated, a confederation of colonies.
Do you have any support for your claims regarding Canadian Confederacy and the implications it has for enumerated and delegated powers, or is this going to again be another "endless, largely meaningless rant" that presents argument by assertion after argument by assertion?
Audrey, you're the one who likes to lecture on Canadian political theory.
ReplyDeleteHave you ever actually read any? Seriously?
I only ask this because you have a remarkable tendency to try to comment on things you know nothing about.
For example, Audrey, you have just revealed the extent of your ingorance vis a vis Canadian political science. When you failed to understand how the votes of individual Canadians influence the process of selecting a Prime Minister and government, I knew you were a fool.
I had no idea how bad it is -- but I do now.
For one thing, for someone who whines so much about "strawman arguments" (also known as your arguments), you sure do like to indulge yourself in them.
Nobody here suggested that Canada is a confederacy -- rather that Canada is a federal state.
Allow me to explain to you what happened in 1867:
The governments of the Province of Canada, Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick came together and negotiated a little thing that Canadian history refers to "Confederation".
Under the agreement, the Province of Canada (previously Upper and Lower Canada, unified by 1840 Act of Union) was dissolved into Canada East and Canada West, and established a federal union along with New Brunswick and PEI.
(Canada East would come to be known as "Quebec" and Canada West would come to be known as "Ontario".)
You would be right to argue that in order to be considered formally a Confederacy that the country would have to be a federation of sovereign states.
The missing link in your argument, Audrey -- and we all know you'll never admit this -- is that when Canada Confederated, none of the Provinces were sovereign. Canada was not a sovereign state after Confederation.
They were colonies, you moron. Canada's sovereignty would be attained over a period of 115 years, culminating with the patriation of the BNA Act in 1982.
Moreover, they were colonies within an entity -- the British Empire -- that no longer formally exists. When Britain dismantled its Empire, it ceded sovereignty to its colonies (with the exception of Hong Kong, which was eventually turned over to China).
If the agreement that is Canadian Confederation were dissolved today, each of these states would immediately become sovereign.
Where else, Audrey, would sovereignty rest following the dissolution of federal union?
I'll forgive you for feeling really, really stupid right now, Audrey, because it's about to get much worse for you.
In order for an arrangement like the one depicted in the Trojan Horse to actually function, a number of conditions would be necessary.
Most important, the federal government would require the power to enact legislation that would unilaterally re-draw the boundaries between provinces.
I invite you to attempt to locate that power in the Constitution.
(You won't, because the Constitution does not give it.)
But, by all means, I invite you to try.
Since you've decided to take this to another thread, I've posted my response there.
ReplyDeleteSounds good, Audrey. Seeing as how you've decided to lose there instead of here, I've indulged you.
ReplyDelete